The Penis Podcast – Episode 11

Transcript – Episode 11

DATE : February 2, 2021

DURATION: 25m 1s

 

START OF TRANSCRIPT

 

[00:00:14] 

Hi everybody, I’m Dr. Gavin Scriven, people call me Dr. Gav, and with me is the founder of the non-surgical penis augmentation procedure we call Calibre, Dr. Jayson Oates.

[00:00:14] 

Thanks Dr. Gav, and together we are the dick doctors and we are going to be talking about all things penis. Our area of expertise is injectable penis augmentation. There’s a lot to talk about penises and together myself and Dr. Gavin will be doing that.

[00:00:32] 

Hello. Welcome, everybody. I’m Dr. Gavin Scriven and this is The Penis Show. And with me today is my esteemed colleague, Dr. Joyce Oates. And together we are the dick doctors. How are you going?

[00:00:46] 

Hi, Dr. Gav. Good to be speaking with you again and it is my great pleasure to be able to introduce to you and to everybody, Gemma Sharp, my occasional co-author and a National Health and Medical Research Council senior research fellow at Monash University, where she leads the team on body image research studies. She’s a clinical psychologist running her own private practice as well, which specialises in the treatment of body image disorders. Welcome, Gemma.

[00:01:20] 

Thank you so much for having me, I’ve never been on a show called The Penis Show before or join the dick doctors. So, this is a new experience for me, so thank you for having me.

[00:01:29] 

Welcome, Gemma. Thank you so much for joining us today, nice to see you.

[00:01:34] 

Thank you.

[00:01:36] 

Now, you you run that the Body Image Research Group, so the first question that I have is, is a guy who wanting a bigger penis, got a body image problem?

[00:01:54] 

Well, I think it would depend on the person with an adjacent I think some people may have body image issues and some people may not, but they clearly have a concern about a body part and that’s where I suppose I would take that conversation exploring, I suppose what may have led them to think that that it might be an issue, maybe they don’t even think it’s an issue at all and they just want it to be bigger. So I think there are a myriad of answers to that question.

[00:02:21] 

Ok, you got out of that very well. Is there any research, literature about guys who are wanting to have a bigger penis?

[00:02:34] 

As you well know, Jason, we’ve published quite a few articles in this field in Aesthetic Surgery Journal. And of course, if people want to read this literature that they can contact us and I’ll send it to them.

[00:02:47] 

Links to this at the bottom of the show.

[00:02:50] 

Wonderful, that’s great, because they’re actually freely accessible, which is wonderful coo of this this journal. Yeah, so I think when we started collaborating, Jason, there wasn’t heaps in the literature, it was really just more to do with how, how the procedure was done rather than men’s perspectives. And I think what we did really nicely was to give those men a voice as to their stories, their reasons, because the literature I’d seen previously was just like Guy X wanted a bigger penis and it’s like, well, of course that’s why that’s why he’s come. But like, what’s the background? And I suppose what we found were a few different motivations. I think it probably comes as no surprise to your listeners that penis size often is related to a man’s sense of masculinity and sense of self and that was a big motivator. I just I want to improve my self-esteem, self-confidence. There were some guys who had had some pretty bad experiences in sexual encounters, partners had told them that they had a small penis. They felt like they couldn’t satisfy their partners, so they were, I suppose, trying to overcome those those issues.

[00:04:07] 

So women making terrible comments.

[00:04:10] 

I really have to defend my gender here because it goes very much the other way, as you know, Jason, with women surgeries and men’s comments.

[00:04:20] 

So that’s how that’s how we first got in contact when we were doing research on female cosmetic genital surgery.

[00:04:29] 

Exactly. So I think it could be a sexual partner of any gender who can make those comments, I think because we don’t tend to show our genitals to very many people. I don’t know about you guys. So those comments and we had guys just say, I just wanted to fill out a pair of swimmers better. So obviously there’s that aesthetics as well and then I think just a combination of reasons as well. So there’s no there’s no one reason. And like every every patient I spoke to had a really unique story. And and they were such good storytellers. And it was an absolute joy to do that research.

[00:05:10] 

Yes. Thank you for that. And then there’s also other research showing that dissatisfaction with penis size was actually very common. I think over 50 percent of guys in some of the research.

[00:05:25] 

Yes.

[00:05:26] 

And then frequently also their partners were not dissatisfied with the size.

[00:05:32] 

Yeah. So it shows that there’s that mismatch, doesn’t it, like that not everyone’s partner is saying, go get penile augmentation. They’re actually going no, I’m very satisfied, but but the patient themselves is saying, no, I’m not. And I think that speaks to, I suppose, broader societal factors around what what a penis size means for a man’s sense of masculinity and his ability and his sexual prowess. So I think it’s not it’s not just partners. It’s sort of that narrative we hear throughout our lives about about penis size. Bigger is better and we know that the partners are not necessarily saying that.

[00:06:11] 

Is bigger, better?

[00:06:12] 

I’m pleased you clarified that I well, the the research is equivocal, like sometimes the research says it is and sometimes it doesn’t. So there’s no clear answer to that. And I think patients themselves believe it. And that’s what obviously is prompting them to come in and seek this treatment.

[00:06:43] 

In our most recent research project, when we were discussing it with the psychologist and Curtin University, that we’re doing it with, one of the questions that came up was, why do guys want to have a bigger penis when they’ve already got a normal sized penis and in the literature they’re like these comments that what they need is psychology and not augmentation. So should guys be having psychology for their desire to have a bigger penis?

[00:07:22] 

Well, I think, Jason, this speaks to a really broad discussion of how psychology and aesthetic plastic surgery should be working together for all procedures. I think like I think having a psychologist on staff is a wonderful step that any practice can take. And I think sometimes a discussion with a psychologist might might be the right choice for a patient. But other times it might be, I’m sorry, that noise in the background. Hopefully you can edit that out. So, yes, sometimes a discussion with a psychologist might be really helpful sometimes and sometimes the psychologist might go, absolutely, this person’s a great candidate for this procedure. Go right ahead. In fact, that is the majority

of recommendations we make. We are not gatekeepers to people getting procedures. We just want people to get the best outcomes based on their expectations. And in fact, all of the patients I interviewed from your practice, Jason, from what they were saying, I would have given the green light for them to go ahead. They had very realistic expectations. They weren’t expecting this penile augmentation to be the cure all for their relationship issues. They weren’t expecting to be a whole new man or anything like that. They were just like, yep, I’m going to get a bigger penis and that’s what I want. And so I that’s that’s what psychologists do really, we just sort of check is like, are there any underlying psychological disorders and do their expectations match what they’re going to receive? And if there’s no disorders and if they match up, then we go, please go ahead. And we think you’ll really benefit from this.

[00:09:02] 

So in this case, thinking outside of the penis realm.

[00:09:07] 

Yes.

[00:09:07] 

The number of cases, patients that I’ve sent specifically to a psychologist and really I’ve been sending them to the psychologist for the psychologist to say, no, you shouldn’t have surgery.

[00:09:16] 

Exactly. You’re already screening them, aren’t you, Jason? Like whereas if you had a psychologist on staff, then you just do it as routine and and obviously you’re you’re picking up on that they maybe have an underlying psychological disorder like body dysmorphic disorder, where we know that they’re never going to be happy no matter how many procedures they have. And it’s and it’s unethical to to perform these procedures anyway on someone with BDD. So I think you’re you’re kind of already doing it yourself.

[00:09:47] 

Absolutely. Dr. Gav.

[00:09:49] 

Yes.

[00:09:49] 

Bring you in here. What’s your sort of experience with the patients and sort of motivations and your psychological type issues that we need to be thinking about?

[00:10:02] 

Yeah, look, it’s really interesting and great hearing what Gemma was saying, because I really agree with everything she just said. Obviously, it’s come from the research, from our procedures anyway. So it makes sense that I agree. But yeah, so so from a personal point of view, in my experience with my clients, that the thing that Gemma said about having an individual reason, every every single reason is different is so true. Everyone has a great story, has a really interesting story and has their own motivation to come and have the procedure. It’s not all it’s it’s not just one reason. Just because I want a bigger penis, it seems to always be a personal motivation behind that and then when you look into the personal motivation, I think for myself, I am screening to see if that personal motivation is maybe not very healthy from a psychological point of view on an emotional point of view. You know, for example, if someone’s got clear signs of depression, clear signs of anxiety, and they’re looking for something to alleviate those symptoms, that this would not be obviously cosmetic procedures is not something that you’d recommend for someone to be treating depression or anxiety or any psychological issues. So I think that’s the definitely always in the back of my mind. I think Gemma mentioned the relationship issues and try and having bad experiences and someone telling them that they, you know, that they were not a satisfactory size or something like that, which is really not a nice experience for someone to go through. And unfortunately, do have a lot of guys telling me that story. I’ve had bad experiences. I have a lot of male clients who have come out of messy divorces and bad breakups who are really low in confidence and low in self-esteem, and I think that’s where I’m really concerned and worried for my clients because I feel like they’re in a vulnerable state emotionally and psychologically. And they do need to seek some kind of help from a psychologist during that time. And coming to me as a first point of call for penis augmentation is not not the best step forward, I think, for those guys. Yes and Gemma has her hand up.

[00:12:25] 

I think like what you’re saying, that Gavin is really appropriate. And I think, like what you could find is that they see a psychologist and then that we alleviate some of those depression anxiety symptoms. And I might still come back to you for the procedure and that’s great, too. Like, I think that’s a really good outcome, like preparing someone well for the procedure, but by addressing some of those relationship issues. And I might go there and you know what? That that calibre procedure is exactly what I want to do still. And we’d be like, well, you are in a really good position to do that now.

[00:12:54] 

Yeah, 100 percent. And we just want to, as you said, make sure that they’re doing it with the right they’re in the right state of mind and they’re consenting to a procedure with the right expectations and doing it for the right

reasons. And you know what? A lot of my guys are quite insightful, they actually say, hey, I know I’ve come out of a bad breakup and I’ve had bad experiences and I know this is not I’m not here to fix all of that. I just think it’s a great procedure and I want to get a bigger penis, but I realise it’s not going to solve all my issues. And they’re quite insightful. So I’ve got to give credit to the patients as well, they understand that.

[00:13:32] 

And yet they sought of see themselves as being a bit freer now and now they can make that decision to go and do it.

[00:13:37] 

Exactly.

[00:13:39] 

And we don’t make guys go and see a psychologist before they buy a Porche, which is the other thing. Maybe they should.

[00:13:51] 

Porche isn’t a medical procedure. So I think it’s maybe a bit lower risk.

[00:13:56] 

It’s much more financial risk though.

[00:14:01] 

And that similar sort of thing, they’ve gone through that breakup. They’re looking for that sort of new release, I think. And so they go off and buy a Porche, as often say to guys, having Calibre is a lot cheaper than buying a Porche. So, yeah, it is that sort of balance, isn’t it? And in fact, sometimes the more intensely a patient is wanting to have the procedure, the more value that they place on it, the more concern that we need to have as as doctors as to whether this is the right sort of way for them to go, because they’re more likely to be the people who are going to have body dysmorphic disorder. They’re going to have ongoing concerns and not be satisfied, whereas the patients who tend to be the happiest are the guys who it’s almost like, a bit of a laugh to them, you know, I thought, wow, a bigger penis, who doesn’t want to have a bigger penis? So I thought I’d come and have a chat to you about it. It’s something that they’re interested in, but life doesn’t revolve around the size of the penis, his life revolves around the size of their penis, those are the ones that I find we need to be more concerned about showing those signs of body dysmorphic disorder.

[00:15:22] 

Yeah, that’s exactly right, Jason. I mean, our diagnostic criteria is that the the appearance concern, the body part concern impacts other areas of functioning like it might intrude in their work lives, it certainly would intrigue and intrude on their relationships and and social life and things like that. So so, yeah, that that really does tick that box of feed day.

[00:15:46] 

And so many patients I’ve said. Look, you don’t need a nice guy having your experience with as well, the vast majority of guys have got totally normal average size penises. And you say, look, you don’t really need this as a as a procedure. This is a desire. You can go and see a psychologist and and they can work through this with you and you won’t have that concern and worry about it any more. Or we can make your penis bigger. And they all say, just make my penis bigger. That’s your experience?

[00:16:22] 

Yeah, yeah, that’s 100 percent my experience. And yeah, just to add to what we were saying before about those guys having gone through maybe bad experiences or trying to go through some self improvement in their own lives, it is the one thing I look for in guys often and which I see as a good sign is they focusing on themselves and saying, you know, now I’ve got a bit more time to myself. I can improve things in my own life. I’m eating healthier, I’m exercising more, I’ve taken up extra classes in something because I’m enjoying that more. And they seem to be flourishing in all different areas of their life, and they said, oh, and on top of that, I’d like to get a larger penis because I can and have the time and the freedom to do it. So that’s a I see that positive side as well with guys coming out of those bad experiences. It’s not it’s not all negative, But yes, certainly I have seen clients who are who I would think where it would be appropriate and I do mention it whether they should be getting some more help and maybe seeking help from a professional psychologist just to work through those issues and by all means, come back and have a chat to me as well in the future about, you know, the penis augmentation. It’s not off the cards, it’s just they’re going through a rough time.

[00:17:45] 

I guess the other problem is, especially in this sort of post covid world.

[00:17:51] 

Certainly speaking from East Coast Australia. It’s not post covid for us in a covid world.

[00:18:01] 

You can’t get to see a psychologist anywhere anyway because they’re all fully booked and it’s just impossible to get in and see them.

[00:18:12] 

There’s some there’s some truth to that, Jason. Yes. I mean, it’s good and bad, isn’t it? It like, you know, lots of people seeking treatment, but we are a bit overwhelmed. I think telehealth is really helped us open up more places and things like that. I think with that telehealth, we would have been really, really in a lot of trouble. I think I suppose the patients you’re recommending, what we can do is maybe just do that kind of one off session just to just to get them going and then follow up with them when we’ve got some space. So I don’t think like I think potentially some of your patients might be thinking, oh, I need to sit down on a couch for years psychotherapy and the person will be there smoking a pipe.

[00:18:54] 

It really isn’t. And I think what you could talk about is just the benefits of just a single session of just having a chat about these issues, because often we do make quite a bit of progress in a single session for these very specific kind of issues. Like particularly because I’m not I’m not saying I’m going to cure your relationship issues and all your childhood trauma. It’s like we’re just seeing your suitability for this procedure and what might help you get to be suitable for it.

[00:19:25] 

Just wary of time and obviously, I’d love to speak about this for forever with you, Jim, because I think it’s fascinating.

[00:19:32] 

Happy to come back any time to the penis show, sounds like a real winner.

[00:19:38] 

But I think one of the things a lot of our clients would be interested in and what I’m interested in as well, and I know Jayson and myself have done some research into this, is having found a good candidate and they’ve gone ahead with the procedure. What are the psychosocial outcomes for these guys that you’ve found? Like how how do they feel after getting a procedure like this? What’s the common outcome.

[00:20:00] 

It’s usually they do feel that sort of self confidence increase, particularly in those kind of locker room situations where they might have previously covered up with a towel. They don’t feel they need to now and they might feel a bit more confident in their relationships and things like that. The effects are like the effects are not enormous, as you might expect. Like I don’t think we could expect an entirely new life, but the effects are moderate and and people do do tend to benefit. I think probably what does happen in research is that we tend to get the sort of happy customers. They’re the ones most likely to tell their stories. I think with Calibre, I suppose people always want that kind of more permanent fix that that is often mentioned, like I have to come back. But I actually think that’s a good thing because it gives you a chance to monitor how they’re going and assess that, I suppose, psychosocial functioning when they come back for their top ups. So I think it’s actually really great that it’s not permanent. I mean, you guys have different thoughts on that, but I think it’s a really good opportunity to keep monitoring these patients.

[00:21:06] 

Sure. Yes, we don’t really have the the injectable options here in Australia for doing permanent augmentation. We’ve been doing this for for over five years now and we have a couple of different products. And one is considerably longer lasting product. If we had the availability of the permanent product, I’m not sure I’d be jumping into using it either, mainly for that idea that if you use a temporary product, if you have an issue or problem, then you can have a temporary issue and you can correct it. But in Tijuana, in Mexico, there’s a clinic that is very successful in using permanent products and maybe we’ll try and get them onto the show at some point and talk about what they’re what they’re doing. Thank you very much, that’s been really insightful. Perhaps we will get you back again and see if we can focus on some more of these issues, because it is an important thing. It’s certainly something that we get criticised about is should this sort of procedure be available at all. But I do nose jobs and facelifts and, you know, we inject products into people’s lips. And personally, I don’t see sort of any great difference from doing those procedures to doing a penis augmentation. And I think if you style your hair, mesh your belt to your shoes, if you’re focusing something on how you present to the world, that maybe this isn’t such a huge leap in being different. It’s more the medical sort of side. And there’s certainly something special about genital areas that we need to be thoughtful about. But I don’t think we need to be just so reticent that we can’t even consider this as a as a treatment. That’s why we started all this five, six years ago.

[00:23:15] 

And and just to add to that, just a lot of the guys I talk to benefit from just being able to talk about it. They say, you know, I don’t talk to my friends about my penis, I don’t talk to my parents about my penis. So they coming and finally talking to someone like yourself is and you’re approachable. It’s kind of uncomfortable. And we can sit down and frankly, talk about it is just a benefit in itself. Even if they didn’t go ahead with the procedure, they feel it’s nice to be able to talk about it and about their concerns because I might have had these concerns for their whole life and

never really talk to someone about it so. But I really do think it’s it’s a topic that’s worthwhile discussing and also that these clients obviously, we know that we get some kind of benefit from a psychosocial point of view from the procedure. But at the same time, it’s really important to consider the reasons behind why they’re getting it and the current sort of psychological, emotional state that they’re in, but that’s like any cosmetic procedures, you said, just from your experience.

[00:24:23] 

Well, thank you very much, Dr. Gemma. It was great having you here, finally getting you to come and speak to everybody on the Penis Show and Penis podcast. Thanks, Dr. Gav. And we will have to get together again soon and on another topic to talk about.

[00:24:39] 

Excellent. Well, we’re the dick doctors. It’s been the Penis Show. Don’t forget, guys, confidence changes everything. And thanks so much, Gemma. That was fantastic and lovely to have you on the show.

[00:24:50] 

Thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

[00:24:54] 

Bye.

END OF TRANSCRIPT